Career Coach Kate Sargent on Working with Recruiters

[00:00:00] Roy Notowitz: Hello and welcome to How I Hire, the podcast that taps directly into the best executive hiring advice and insights. I'm Roy Notowitz, founder and CEO of Noto Group. You can learn more about us at notogroup.com. As a go-to firm for purpose-driven companies, we've been lucky to work with some of the world's most inspiring leaders as they've tackled the challenge of building high performance leadership teams. Now, I'm sitting down with some of these very people to spark a conversation about how to achieve success in hiring and create purposeful leadership for the next generation of companies. Today, I'm joined by career coach Kate Sargent for a new three-part conversation series where we'll dig into insight and advice for job seekers. Kate helps active and passive job seekers with job search strategy through her consultancy KJS, and she's played a key role in recruiting and leading talent acquisition functions at major brands such as North Face, The Citizenry, Method, and Allbirds. In this episode, we'll cover how candidates can successfully identify and build relationships with recruiters and search firms. Kate, thanks for joining us. It's great to have you back on the podcast.

[00:01:18] Kate Sargent: Thanks, Roy. I'm super excited to do this again. It was such a fun time doing the last two podcasts with you.

[00:01:24] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. It had such great feedback from our listeners, and now we're back to do a deeper dive into some of the topics that we discussed. I was thinking, it'd probably be good to just refresh us a bit, for those who may not have heard those first two podcasts, about your path to becoming a job search strategy coach and expert on the topic. I know you do lots of different things, but let's dig into that a little bit.

[00:01:47] Kate Sargent: Yeah, for sure. So I came out of college and thought I was going to be a lawyer, decided to take a different path, and wound up working in retail for years -- loved the field side of retail. Wound up in retail recruiting for The North Face, then did corporate recruiting for The North Face, and then wound up being the head of global talent acquisition at Method, the soap company. Took them to acquisition by S.C. Johnson. I was a global head of talent acquisition for Allbirds -- took them to an IPO. And then, most recently, I was the VP of People for The Citizenry and took them to an acquisition as well. So I've spent quite a bit of time on the talent acquisition side, but I've also been working as a executive coach, job search coach for almost nine years. I started doing it for my friends, and then got tired of doing it for free, asked them to bring me paying clients, and, you know, word of mouth, my business built, and built, and built. And then I came out on the market and now I have a wonderful, thriving coaching business. It's been really incredible, the response, and I love helping people find their next role and figure out how to get through to the next steps of their career.

[00:02:56] Roy Notowitz: Absolutely, and we met about five years ago, I think, when you were at Allbirds, and whenever I refer somebody to you for this type of coaching or support, I always get so much great feedback.

[00:03:11] Kate Sargent: Aw.

[00:03:12] Roy Notowitz: So tell us a little bit about how you support and coach job seekers. What are some of those things that you do?

[00:03:19] Kate Sargent: So, in terms of the career search portion of the work that I do, my goal is centered around helping people tell their story properly. So, crafting your narrative, helping you really understand the different segments of your career, and weaving and threading the themes together so that it's really easy for you to tell a comprehensive and cohesive story -- both through written formats, being, you know, your resume, telling your story backwards, your LinkedIn profile being where you are at this exact moment, constantly evolving, and then, in interview, networking, and outreach, I want people to be able to tell their story forward and how they can do work for people in a new role. And whether it's a pivoting role, whether it's a role that's very similar to the one that you're currently doing, or you're trying out a new industry, being able to talk about yourself in a way that helps you get there.

[00:04:09] Roy Notowitz: That's awesome. Let's get into this. We wanted to talk about how best to work with recruiters. I think it's often something that folks don't completely understand in terms of how recruiters work and the different ways in which to engage and get the most out of relationships with recruiters of different types. And so, I'm interested in starting out with really doing a deep dive to understand the role of the recruiter and how we work. Can you give us a bit of an overview?

[00:04:39] Kate Sargent: Yeah, and just for clarity too, there's a very different type of recruiter for different types of work. So, I was an in-house recruiter, which meant I worked on the brand side, so I worked inside of a brand, recruited only for that brand and for the roles that happen to open in our space, versus an agency recruiter that would take, potentially, all sorts of different searches from different companies and be working with different types of clients, and different types of roles, and, potentially, different industries as well. As an in-house recruiter, people would always ask us, "You know, why do we need external agencies to work on some of these searches?" And really, when you're an internal recruiter, you're a generalist. You have to work on all of the different types of roles, depending on what the volume looks like. But also, there's a big call for, like, confidentiality too, where you might want to be searching, potentially, for a role without your in-house recruiter talking about it on LinkedIn too. Somebody might be retiring or leaving confidentially, and those are the type of situations where you want that utmost care from the agency that's working on your executive roles as well.

[00:05:47] Roy Notowitz: So I hear from candidates all the time that the follow up, follow through, and communication sometimes is challenging. Can you tell us a little bit about why communication is inconsistent or recruiters are sometimes unresponsive?

[00:06:06] Kate Sargent: I think there's a ton of different reasons why recruiters are unresponsive, and I would say, almost none of them are because of the recruiter. A lot of those are circumstances outside of their control. So, having been an in-house recruiter, I can tell you that, when we get jobs handed to us, generally, someone has an idea, they've created a job description, they're ready to go, there's a budget, and we put that out there, and we start recruiting. Now, that's an ideal scenario where you're ready, you've got the budget, everything's moving forward. Now, what happens in a search is that, a lot of times, the hiring manager changes their mind after seeing some candidates, or the job wasn't fully fleshed out, or we wind up changing what the leveling of the job looks like, or the budget gets cut. All of those things are reasons that a recruiter might hit pause, not be able to communicate with you as quickly, the time frame changes, or they wind up with different people needing to interview because the role has changed. Those are a couple of the reasons that a recruiter would be a little bit unresponsive or inconsistent. But, mainly, it's because they don't know what to tell you. A lot of times they don't have all the information, or they don't want to tell you something that's incorrect because recruiters take a lot of heat for that too. It's a very delicate position, but when you've got 700 people in a search, it's really difficult to make perfect communication happen for every single person. Now, I'm not making excuses for recruiters, but I am saying that it is definitely a wild world out there right now. Now, from the agency side too, it could be they just don't have information, right? Like, is the hiring manager communicating? Is the in-house recruiting team communicating what's going on? So, there's a lot of different moving pieces behind the scenes. Now, sometimes it could just be a recruiter that is truly rude or bad at their job, but, I would say, the majority of situations where you're not hearing back from somebody, it's not about that. It's about it being a confusing time, or budget's changing, or not having the right info.

[00:08:04] Roy Notowitz: I think, also, sometimes it is just that they're not as interested in your candidacy. Maybe they have other candidates that are more closely aligned, and, for some reason, maybe they're slow-playing your application or your resume while they look for additional candidates, given feedback, maybe, that they've received from the hiring manager. Or, another aspect is just timing. Maybe there's already people in the finalist stage, and the recruiter doesn't want to enter in more variables or more candidates. There's a lot of different things at play.

[00:08:38] Kate Sargent: You know, recruiters are also sensitive to candidates' feelings too. We don't want to have to deliver bad news until we are for sure that bad news is there. So I do think there's a sensitivity, too, to not wanting to reject somebody until they are fully rejected. But, often, that can be a longer process because you have to wait through somebody else going all the way through.

[00:09:00] Roy Notowitz: I think also, just another dynamic along the same lines is we don't want to disappoint people, and it's difficult, but there are more people that we have to disposition or say 'no' to than we can say 'yes' to, just given the way searches work and how the pool gets narrowed. And so, oftentimes, call it half a dozen to a dozen people who are extremely qualified for the role, but, given certain variables about what the client is looking for or the people who are already in the mix, that person doesn't really have the opportunity to get in front of that client. And I know it can be really frustrating and disappointing if you feel like you're a strong fit, but, unfortunately, it's like the musical chair scenario where there's lots of great people, but only one chair. So those are the things where just have a little grace for recruiters, and understand that they're under a lot of pressure, and trying to do the best they can.

[00:09:55] Kate Sargent: There is a difference between waiting and a role being a little bit unclear, or a little bit foggy about budget, or when it's going to be released, than a recruiter just straight ghosting you. And that is a very different circumstance that I have absolutely no ability to condone because just ghosting someone and never letting them know about their candidacy for the future is never acceptable in the recruiting space.

[00:10:18] Roy Notowitz: Let's get into how a candidate can evaluate which search firms are a good fit for them.

[00:10:25] Kate Sargent: All recruiters do not recruit for all types of jobs, so making sure that you're talking to the right kind of recruiter. If you're an executive, are you talking to an executive recruiting firm? If you are in retail, are you talking to a firm that is really specializing in the type of work that you do in retail? And making sure that you find the right types of recruiters to work with that are interested in what you're doing.

[00:10:49] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. Some firms are focused more on discipline, like, there might be a firm that just does CFO recruiting. Other firms are more generalists within certain industry disciplines, like, for us, for example, is consumer, but we work across multiple consumer segments. And, in terms of what a candidate should look for is the firms that represent or have relationships with the types of companies that they're interested in working for, right? And looking at, specifically, also, the experience of the recruiting team and the depth or quality of the relationships that they have with clients. For example, if you're contacted by a recruiter, and they don't really have a lot of information about the opportunity, or about the company, or if they don't ask good questions to really understand your capabilities and competencies, then that's a little bit of a yellow flag.

[00:11:44] Kate Sargent: Also, check with your friends, the people that have worked with them before. That's usually a good way to get some advice on who to talk to as a recruiter. Ask people that have already worked with them. One other thing I wanted to touch on here too -- just because it's such a ripe time for scams -- that recruiters are not going to be asking you for information about your date of birth and your social security number, just to throw it out there. So make sure you're working with somebody reputable, definitely somebody that's aligned with what you do, who you are, the type of things that are important to you and the industries that you want to be working in. Really, really important.

[00:12:21] Roy Notowitz: So time is especially scarce for recruiters, right? There's a lot of communication and high volume of relationships. What should a candidate expect just kind of reaching out to a firm or recruiter for the first time? And what are some of the things that they can do to evaluate that firm in that process?

[00:12:41] Kate Sargent: Your intro message is everything in a lot of ways. You know, if you're reaching out to somebody, you want it to be very appreciative, thankful, leaving things open-ended, and I think being really direct and targeted with what your ask actually is is really, really important. Are you asking me to forward your resume along to somebody? Are you asking me to take a look at your resume myself? Because I can tell you right now, I don't necessarily always have time for one, but I might have time for the other. So I do think being very clear about what you're asking for -- not asking for ambiguous time with recruiters as well. "Can I pick your brain?" But "pick your brain" generally means, "I want to take your time, and your time is not as valuable to me," a lot of times as well because it's unpaid time. It's time that you're spending with someone asking them about things that maybe they get paid for in their actual work life as well. So, not to be stingy in that space, but pick your brain is not something that people always want to hear.

[00:13:45] Roy Notowitz: You know, recognizing that this is a long-term strategy, too. I've talked to thousands of people every year, and we only place 50 to 60, let's say, in a given year. So, the likelihood that we're going to be the channeler for you to get the job is definitely low; however, you have to build and maintain these relationships over time because that's how things happen. But recognizing that because of the volume, they may only have five to 15 minutes to just do an intro call and to get to know you a little bit. The goal is to build knowledge of you over time. So, if there is an opportunity that we can evaluate you for, that's when we do a deep dive into your competencies, and superpowers, and how you do what you do, and how you lead. All those things that matter and that are important.

[00:14:31] Kate Sargent: So I always talk to my clients about: you probably don't want to go more than, like, five lines deep into an intro email because, frankly, I can get through pretty much anything in five lines if I'm being really targeted and concise about it. I would also say, make your information skimmable. Like, that first segment of every sentence should be very clear about what it is you're looking for. Or very clear about, like, how I get through this email and down to your resume, if that's what you're including.

[00:15:00] Roy Notowitz: What are some effective ways, though, for candidates or people looking for their next move to build relationships with search consultants?

[00:15:10] Kate Sargent: LinkedIn is your best bet. I would say find the people that are posting, find the people that are active on LinkedIn. Get into people's DMs and appreciate their content. Say nice things. Bring something up about them so it's not just about you. I think the best way to approach any sort of ask is for it not to just be an ask for something for you. "Really loved your content," add a compliment on there that's about another person. "I would love to make my network available to you if you ever need anybody that I know, please let me know if I can ever return the favor." "Really love the work that your company is doing and would love to stay engaged even if you don't have any roles for me currently." Those are the type of lines, to me, that tell me that you're going to be somebody that I want to be engaged with long term, again, because you understand how this works. And two, you're not just taking. So when your ask feels like a constant take, that's when I start to lose interest in those folks.

[00:16:08] Roy Notowitz: So, respecting the recruiter's role -- sort of getting back to what to do or what not to do with recruiters -- disagreeing with their evaluation or going around them to hiring execs sometimes isn't the most productive. Can you elaborate a little bit on that?

[00:16:23] Kate Sargent: Oh, this is such a sticky one, right? Where, let's say, you know, the hiring manager felt you weren't a great fit for it. You feel like you were. Understood. We get that. We understand that you think you were a great fit -- and maybe you were a really great fit -- but that's not what's happening here. What's happening here is there is a selection process, and your recruiter isn't necessarily going to be a person that's going to be able to help you go back and argue. We're not there to negotiate for you with a hiring manager that's already made their decision that you're not the right candidate. We will negotiate for you in the process while you're still a great candidate, but we're not going to do it once the hiring manager has, you know, kind of rejected you.

[00:17:04] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. That said, if a recruiter is really good at what they do, and they do, let's say, hear some feedback from a hiring manager that maybe they don't agree with, they might ask the hiring manager, "Hey, I might want to loop back with this candidate and dig into that a little bit more." And so, if a recruiter's calling you back and asking you, or emailing you, additional questions, sometimes that's because there is a concern or an area that they want to learn more about to try to help build a case for the hiring exec to move you forward in the process.

[00:17:33] Kate Sargent: It's also a don't-kill-the-messenger kind of situation. Like, it's not their fault. People ask for feedback from recruiters, and, for a number of reasons, we're not allowed to give feedback a lot of times. One, for that reason that I just mentioned, because people will argue with you. I do try to give feedback whenever I'm allowed to or whenever I can because I do think feedback is really helpful for people. But temper your reaction when you do get that feedback and understand that a lot of times people can't give that. Going behind your recruiter's back to a hiring manager is, both on the in-house side and on the agency side, a real quick way for recruiters to not be happy. One, it makes you look like you're not having the right kind of relationship or understanding how that relationship works. It is clearly showing that you do not trust your recruiter on some level as well, which is not a great look either. It also, on the in-house side, is really uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable for a hiring manager. It's uncomfortable for an in-house recruiter when we've told your agency, or, you know, if the hiring manager has told your in-house recruiter that you're not moving forward, and you go behind that person's back, and then try to get additional information from a hiring manager. I would say always try to go through your proper channels first. But what if you don't have a good recruiter? What if you very clearly have a bad actor in this space, and you don't feel like somebody is advocating appropriately for you? What do you do? What is the agency etiquette for that?

[00:19:04] Roy Notowitz: Yeah, I mean, even despite some of the things we said to look for in a good recruiter, it might be hard to know they're advocating or how well they're doing that for you. And if it's a retained recruiter or an in-house recruiter, you really have to build that rapport and that trust. And I think it's okay to follow up with them, and just ask for more details, and try to get a sense of what the feedback is or why you might not be moving forward in the process, or if they have any specific concerns. Asking them straight up, "Hey, I know there's no such thing as a perfect candidate. What are some of your concerns around my experience as it relates to the role? Is there anything I can do to help bring some more clarity to areas that maybe are not as obvious?"

[00:19:48] Kate Sargent: A well-placed thank you note too, back to a hiring manager, CC’ing your recruiter, like, thanking them for the process, maybe reiterating that you're interested for the future and giving that hiring manager one more look at your positive response is, in some ways, like a last ditch effort too.

[00:20:09] Roy Notowitz: Yeah, I agree. I think that could be good. Another thing, just to think about, is a lot of recruiters, especially retained or in-house, they have a lot of social capital with their contacts, whether it's in the company or within the industry. Even the in-house recruiters have a lot of contacts within the industry, and they could potentially connect you with other folks, but it's important to know how that social capital works, being able to ask for help appropriately. So, for example, the most influential recruiters are really careful not to overburden their network of execs with a lot of introductions, right? Because it takes time. Also, it's just not how the business works. So, when somebody calls me and they say, "Hey, I need help with my job search," I can have those initial conversations that talk about a little bit about their strategy and their approach. But we're not here really to help you get interviews. That's just not how it works.

[00:21:05] Kate Sargent: You've got to think about timing, too, and, like, the battle versus the war. You know, like, you may have lost this battle for this job, but if you stay in touch with a recruiter and you treat them right, you may win the war in future when that right job comes along, and that recruiter is thinking of what a positive space you've held in that relationship and network with them, that you're going to be the person that they think of, versus somebody else who they've had a negative experience with. So, you know, it's a long game when you're talking about relationships, networking, job hunts. Talk to a recruiter if a recruiter reaches out to you, because you never know who else they're talking to, what other things they're working on, you know, and being, at least, gracious if you turn a recruiter down for a conversation is really important because you're going to want that person to keep you in mind for the future.

[00:21:51] Roy Notowitz: The more honest and accurate you are in helping us understand your true strengths, and where you fit, and what works best for you, and your style -- that's really going to help us understand and believe who you are and what you're capable of doing.

[00:22:06] Kate Sargent: It's just as much about editing what you are not good at, as it is about highlighting what you are good at. We know that this is a really tough job market. It's just like that round hole, square peg situation, and I think people wind up being like, "I can do that. I could do that. No, I could definitely do that. I can do anything." Don't get desperate to the point in your job search that you almost water down the incredible work that you are capable of doing by acting like you can do everything.

[00:22:34] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. Because then we don't really know what to believe. Just along the same lines, around desperation, oftentimes, people will email me and then everyone else on my team. And it's very inefficient for us as a firm to have my whole team taking time to respond and have 15 minute phone calls, even. I'd much rather just be very targeted. If there's a specific recruiter that you want to build a relationship with, start there because they're talking to the other recruiters on my team or in-house, right, or other places.

[00:23:06] Kate Sargent: That is particularly true in agency or, like, smaller companies. But I do think that, one of the learnings that I've had in these larger organizations like an Amazon, or a Google, or one of those groups, those recruiters do not always talk to each other, and the segmentation and the matrix in those spaces is so deep. Those are the type of situations where maybe you want to spread your recruiting conversations a little bit wider. But, for the most part, in the mid-size, small companies or agency side of things, everybody's communicating. You're all in the same pool. We understand where you are.

[00:23:43] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. The last thing I would say is just -- back to our first podcast where we talked about how you spend your time and your strategy -- not putting all your eggs in one basket. If it's not moving forward, just move on and start looking for other opportunities. But just leverage or appreciate the fact that you have additional relationships that you've established, and brush it off, and keep identifying those opportunities or those people that you want to connect with, and keep your process moving forward.

[00:24:14] Kate Sargent: Be the recruiter in your own network. Be the person that is introducing people. Be the person that sees a job out there, and thinks about their network, and forwards things along to them as well. You'd be really surprised at how many opportunities come up as a result of that. I've seen that happen. I've seen it happen with my clients as well, where you open up an opportunity for somebody within a company, and then, the first person that person thinks about when they get into that company is you.

[00:24:40] Roy Notowitz: I always say, if you invest in the success of others, you know, it comes back around, right?

[00:24:45] Kate Sargent: I'm living proof of that. I started out giving free sessions, and offering free coaching, and thinking that that was just, like, something I was going to do in the meantime. And it has built my entire business just being nice to people and trying to help people.

[00:24:59] Roy Notowitz: It's true. And we do our best, just so you know. We do our best to approach our work with kindness and generosity.

[00:25:07] Roy Notowitz: So, hopefully we covered most of what you need to know about working with recruiters or how best to work with recruiters, but ,certainly, we're open to any additional questions. You can reach out to us on LinkedIn, and feel free to ask more questions if you have any.

[00:25:23] Kate Sargent: Or argue with us if you think we're wrong. I'm always happy to have somebody disagree with what I'm thinking. Any day.

[00:25:30] Roy Notowitz: Yeah.

[00:25:30] Kate Sargent: Love the feedback.

[00:25:31] Roy Notowitz: And we are posting a lot of stuff out there, so be on the lookout. Especially Kate. She's prolific with her posts, and they're always insightful.

[00:25:39] Kate Sargent: Thank you.

[00:25:39] Roy Notowitz: In our next topic, we're going to dig into interviewing and do a deep dive there, so stay tuned for that. And thanks again, Kate, for joining us on this podcast and sharing your insights.

[00:25:51] Kate Sargent: Anytime. Anytime you want to have me, Roy, I'm always ready to show up for a podcast.

[00:25:59] Roy Notowitz: Thanks for tuning in to How I Hire. Visit howihire.com for more career advice resources. Kate will join me again next week for Part Two: a deep dive into interviewing. How I Hire is created by Noto Group. To find out more about Noto Group, visit us at notogroup.com. You can also sign up for our monthly email job alert newsletter there, and find additional job search strategy, resources, and content on hiring. This podcast was produced by Anna McClain. To learn more about her and her team's work, visit aomcclain.com.

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