Jackson Jeyanayagam

[00:00:00] Roy Notowitz: Hello and welcome to How I Hire, the podcast that taps directly into the best executive hiring advice and insights. I'm Roy Notowitz, founder and CEO of Noto Group Executive Search. You can learn more about us at notogroup.com. As a go-to firm for purpose-driven companies, we've been lucky to work with some of the world's most inspiring leaders as they've tackled the challenge of building high performance leadership teams. Now I'm sitting down with some of these very people to spark a conversation about how to achieve success in hiring and create purposeful leadership for the next generation of companies. Jackson Jeyanayagam joins me on the podcast today. Jackson is an accomplished executive who's worked across many different industry sectors. He began his career on the agency side, working for numerous Fortune 500 clients, before delving deeply into digital marketing, direct to consumer growth, and P&L management for some of the biggest brands in the world. Most recently, Jackson worked for Anheuser-Busch InBev, founding and scaling the RTD brand, Hey, Hei. Prior to his tenure at Anheuser-Busch, he served as vice president and general manager of Clorox direct to consumer business and CMO of Boxed, a direct to consumer startup. Before that, he was head of digital for Chipotle. Jackson talks about the ways in which his diverse experience informs his leadership style and approach to hiring and team building, as well as the premium he places on versatility. We also get into working at an agency versus a startup versus a large brand, evaluating the strengths and capabilities of a new team, and the hallmarks of a broken interview system. Jackson, thanks for joining me on the podcast. I've been looking forward to having this conversation.

[00:01:56] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Yeah, man. Thank you for having me.

[00:01:59] Roy Notowitz: So you've had great success at several of the largest and most well-known brands in the world and also experience in early stage startups, so I'm wondering if you can touch on some of your career highlights and how those experiences have shaped your approach to leadership, as well as hiring and building teams.

[00:02:16] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Yeah, I mean, first off, I definitely feel lucky to have had the experiences that I've had. To be honest, I think a lot of what has informed me as a person and professional has actually come from the failures of those places, if not more than the successes. Fifteen years on the agency side was awesome; you learn about client service, the need to move fast, the need to think constantly and challenge yourself outside of your own little world or bubble, right? And you're doing lots of different things. In my case, I was building digital practice groups and doing digital executions across the spectrum. Then, going to Chipotle, where you're an amazingly hot, iconic brand. Then you go through a food crisis, so that was obviously not ideal, but you learn a lot in that as much as, at the time, it really freaking sucked. And then going to a startup from there; that was awesome. High growth in the time when e-commerce startups were all the rage. You remember that time? Like, you know-- 

[00:03:03] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. 

[00:03:03] Jackson Jeyanayagam: --2014, 2015 to before Covid. I was there from 2016 to 2018 at Boxed -- an amazing experience. High growth tech startup right in the middle of everything, and then, you know, we didn't have an exit. That journey, that experience, while it didn't exit the way I would've wanted it to, was awesome. Then going from there to Clorox, where it's a very different kind of functional role where I'm general manager at a iconic, hundred-plus year brand over D to C and e-Commerce, and then, Covid happens, and everyone's talking about Clorox, but, unlike Chipotle, it's all positive, to AB InBev, starting up an incubator from scratch with a very small team, very lean resources. So, you know, I would say each one's informed me for different reasons, positive and negatively. I, I think all of those have given me different kinds of skill sets and experiences for sure. 

[00:03:46] Jackson Jeyanayagam: 

[00:03:46] Roy Notowitz: In talking about that learning curve, you know, was it a shock to the system when you made the move from bigger companies like Clorox and Chipotle to Boxed and Hey, Hei?

[00:03:56] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Yeah, I mean it was, and it wasn't, right? It was in the sense that, you know, it was my second in-house company because I had 15 years of agency, and it was four founders, right? So, while there was a CEO, there's four people you're kind of in service to and a board with VCs -- very different than a board at Chipotle, for instance. That was a little bit of a culture shock. I will say, though, I'm very lucky coming from the agency side, especially a New York agency, you move so fast, everyone's like, "Oh, startup pace is insane." But it was similar to agency. It was different kind of work. 

[00:04:24] Roy Notowitz: You're already conditioned. 

[00:04:25] Jackson Jeyanayagam: I was. I very much was. That didn't worry me at all. I was so used to that with client service, but it was certainly the makeup of a startup. And then AB InBev was different because it was a startup within a big company, so it was kind of a little bit of both. 

[00:04:37] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. 

[00:04:37] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Going from Clorox, which was a hundred million dollar P&L, 150 plus people at one point, then I'm kind of managing a five person team and $500,000 budget. Very, very different scenario. But, to your point, I think all those experiences did prepare me. I wouldn't say that was too much of a shock. You just flex different muscles, and I think versatility is one of those things that no one talks enough about when you talk about recruiting, and I think that subject matter experts are important, but versatility, someone who can flex based on the need, based on technologies, based on macro circumstances or micro, I think is arguably one of the most important skill sets in any function.

[00:05:11] Roy Notowitz: How do you go about building a team and getting things off the ground when you're coming into an organization? 

[00:05:16] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Because of my inclination, how I learn and how I do things, I like to minimize things to the simplest form. So, if you were to say, "Jackson, I'm hiring you to be a recruiter, or AB is hiring me to run a startup, or Boxed are hiring me as CMO." Very different kind of needs states, different scenarios, different people. All the variables are different, but you can always reduce any situation to: what are the most important things I need? In the case of AB, I'm launching a drink from scratch. I know what ultimately I'm trying to do here, right? Trying to build a scale, prove something out, create a playbook, apply the playbook throughout the portfolio, big and small brands. None of that matters if I don't have a liquid or a brand, so I need to create a liquid. How do I go about doing that? Well, here's what I need to do that: I need someone to help me with that. Leverage internal resources, someone who's familiar with internal resources and who has done that before. I need someone to help me create a brand. That's marketing brand, that's packaging brand. That's the whole thing. Those are my two people. I put the business plan together and I said, "Those are the two people I need." That was the first step. At Boxed, it was very different. I was inheriting a 25 person team. Growth was insane. They just got a big round of funding, so you receive funding. I need to figure out what is the gap from growth from, at that point, 90 million to a few hundred million? What are we going to need? Right? Obviously money, but what are the skill sets we're going to need? And so I started to attack it there, like, what's missing? And where are my amazing stars, maybe in the rough? Or stars that are clear stars, and how do I figure that out? And then also, you know, where are the gaps? Where are the challenges? Maybe is there some toxic folks or the people who just aren't going to be able to be with us? So it's all about the simplest form. 

[00:06:44] Roy Notowitz: How do you evaluate the strengths and weaknesses, capabilities, potential of the teams that you're either inheriting or building? 

[00:06:51] Jackson Jeyanayagam: So I don't go to hard skills first. I go to the person. It's about the people. You got to have an amazing team. So I meet with each one of 'em. Who are you? Why'd you come here? Why are you still here? What do you see as the opportunity? What are the challenges? What have you loved doing? What do you hate doing? What do you want to learn? Right? Like there's questions I would want to know, right? Because that can be scary, right? Anytime you have a new boss, the first thing people think, especially in this day and age: "I'm going to get fired, or my job is on the line," and no one does their best when they're fearful like that, right?

[00:07:16] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. 

[00:07:17] Jackson Jeyanayagam: So, for me, it's about creating that environment. I'm just like, "Listen, this is a blank slate to some extent, right?" I hire for versatility, curiosity, and empathy. Those are three things I'm kind of looking for, and that's not about your performance on running a conversion rate optimization test on the product side. That's not about building a top-of-the-funnel, amazing brand campaign. It, it's obviously important, but I'm looking for the person, and once I have that, then I get a sense of how they're wired, how they think, even in a 30, 45 minute, hour discussion. And then I apply that. Think of it like a kind of a drawing and outline. I take that on top of the scenario I'm inheriting. "Okay, here's the challenges we have here. Here's the kind of people I have. Let me figure out the gaps. And, most importantly, let me figure out who the people are that maybe could fill those gaps or create new opportunities for them. And what are the things--?" Very important here: "--that I don't want to F with? We cannot mess with this." And I learned that the hard way where I messed with some things too soon, too early. But it all starts with the people, Roy. I know it sounds obvious, but actually I dig really deep into the people. To me, everyone has a chance. Everyone has a chance-- 

[00:08:12] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. 

[00:08:12] Jackson Jeyanayagam: --to reinvent themselves or to continue to do what they're doing at a different level. Or change nothing. So it starts there. Roy. 

[00:08:19] Roy Notowitz: As you're going through that process of figuring out those gaps, and opportunities, and what not to mess with, do you engage collaboratively, like, with an HR leader? Or are you going through an exercise of roles and responsibility clarification with the team? Like, is there a formal way that you go about figuring this all out, or is it just you doing a lot of deep thinking and having conversations?

[00:08:42] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Yeah, I mean it's both. It's stage, right? Whether it's a CEO, a GM who I'm reporting to, or a board member, someone outgoing, founder in one case, I get their perspective, right? That's really important. I might not agree with it, but I want their perspective. And I think, you know, when you become more senior, as you know, Roy, you're able to compartmentalize someone's feedback versus your own, right? But it's good to have that. If there's a good strong HR business partner in place, I'll certainly work with them to think about the process and get their perspective on what's happened if there's history, especially in a larger company. But I've done enough of these that I feel pretty confident in my own process, so I'll have those convos. I mean, it's exhausting, but, to me, it's really important, for the most part, that I want to start out with mostly a clean slate, with some perspective from the key stakeholders. So at Clorox, my team size was literally just under 150 people. I knew we had to change it. I knew it was probably a little bit too big, based on the P&L. I met with every single person. Some people had 20 minutes, some people had an hour, right, based on level and function. It took me like a month, and I didn't make any actions unless something was truly broken. It was so obviously broken. For the most part, I didn't really make any significant changes in those first 30 days, and I just start to bring in other resources as appropriate, or as needed. Like the HR business partner, I get to dive in deeper about org design, org structure, where my needs are. I start to dig into their P&L work with a finance partner to understand, you know, where my room is, and I'll work with my manager, in this case, to obviously gut check him or her to get a sense of what's doable, what's not, maybe, what are some other watch-outs now they have a sense of the people, as well as maybe the gaps on the business. 

[00:10:02] Roy Notowitz: So what are some examples of lessons you've learned from hiring successes and failures? 

[00:10:07] Jackson Jeyanayagam: I mean, I've definitely had some great people that I, I was, uh, lucky enough to hire, some people that were really good at what they do and not so great for the culture. And, you know, culture is a very big word. I'm sure we'll get into that. Some are intentionally toxic, some are unintentionally toxic. I try to keep it to the foundation of those three things I mentioned earlier: curiosity, versatility, empathy. And I go into every interview not with a formulaic set of questions. I treat each interview differently. I look to challenge myself with the folks I'm hiring. Yeah, I do want some subject matter expertise, but I want people from all walks of life if I can afford that. And then now you're getting a whole different type of talent. They might not be a fit at the end of the day, but at least open up that funnel a little bit and have some clear filters that we just need someone who's managed a budget of a certain size, who's been in these kind of roles, or these kind of experiences, but, to limit it to, like, "But we want them from these kind of five tech companies, these five CPG," I think you're limiting yourself from the beginning. So for me, that's really important to get the best kind of quality talent. 

[00:11:00] Roy Notowitz: I a thousand percent agree. In fact, you know, a lot of companies come to us and say they are really looking for somebody with different or parallel industry experience that they can bring fresh ideas and approaches to everything from product creation to operations, whatever.

[00:11:16] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Mm-Hmm. 

[00:11:16] Roy Notowitz: But I think people are capable of much more than what their piece of paper says. 

[00:11:21] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Yeah. 

[00:11:22] Roy Notowitz: People have the ability to figure things out, and there's no disadvantage at all. It just takes a little extra time. But those are things actually that often make somebody who's a really amazing, talented person attracted to an opportunity because they can learn something new. 

[00:11:37] Jackson Jeyanayagam: And vice versa. All the staff there are hopefully learning from him or her, right? "Oh, I didn't know we could do it this way," right? And then now you have maybe some different ways to go about a problem or a challenge to differentiate yourself from the category. Like, I'm always amazed at these presumably innovative companies that we all know, and I see, or I talk to people -- and I talk to lots of these companies because I've happened to be across different sectors. And, "You guys, this is crazy, like, you're only talking to tech execs? Or only CPG execs, and your challenge is to differentiate?" It's like hiring a consultant. You know you're like, "We need to fix things, we need to differentiate, we need to like really stand out, and we're in a beverage space, but let's get the consultants who's worked on Pepsi, Coke and AB," and it's like, well, of course the answers you're going to get, the strategy you're going to get are all going to be specific to your category. It's so counterintuitive, Roy. I never understood that. 

[00:12:21] Roy Notowitz: I think the risk is, and what companies need to be comfortable with, is that there is a higher potential of failure. 

[00:12:28] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Yeah. 

[00:12:28] Roy Notowitz: Bringing somebody in-- 

[00:12:29] Jackson Jeyanayagam: You're right. 

[00:12:30] Roy Notowitz: --without the industry experience, but if you're okay with that, or if that becomes more normalized, I think the potential benefits, if you get it right, even 50% of the time-- 

[00:12:40] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Yeah. 

[00:12:41] Roy Notowitz: --are exponential. 

[00:12:42] Jackson Jeyanayagam: I think that's a great point. What is that phrase? Speaking of consultants. No one ever got fired for hiring McKinsey, right? There's a reason for that, right? So it's the safest bet, and I think human nature, for the most part, I think most humans, we're wired to-- I'm reading Culture Code right now, and they talk about this. We're wired to survive, to protect ourselves. It's why I hire for versatility. Like, it's how you think and approach a problem that we should be hiring for. Not, "Oh, you've done this before, so do this again over here." 

[00:13:05] Roy Notowitz: Right. 

[00:13:05] Jackson Jeyanayagam: It's like, who wants that job? I want something different. I want to learn. I want to grow. 

[00:13:09] Roy Notowitz: Right. So when you're asking questions, you're listening for lots of different dimensions and whether or not it's a really great answer or a mediocre answer based on the filter that you establish in your mind going in. You talked about intentionally toxic and unintentionally toxic, which I thought was really interesting. So let's dig into that a little bit more. What do you mean by that? How do you assess that? Obviously it seems like that's a knockout factor for you when talking to somebody, and especially in larger organizations, there's a lot of opportunity for that type of behavior. So how do you dig into that? How do you understand where somebody is on that continuum?

[00:13:46] Jackson Jeyanayagam: It is hard, especially on unintentional, and I'll talk about it, because I've been unintentionally toxic. I definitely have. Intentional, sometimes it's easy, sometimes it's not. Intentionally toxic people I think is easier to talk about. They seek drama. They love drama. They can't help it. I have friends who are like this. I love them, but, you start asking enough questions: "Tell me about time you were frustrated. Tell me your biggest pet peeves." Usually people are good about those first couple questions, but if you wear them down enough, you'll get to see like, "Oh, okay. There it is." I see someone who really wants to create drama, versus someone who's trying to problem solve. And so I do my best to weed that out very early if I start to pick up someone who gravitates towards drama and tension, right? If you start to see a pattern, and especially if, "It's someone else's fault, it's not my fault." That's usually the core of toxicity. Accountability is critical. That's intentional. Unintentionally toxic is so much more complicated because I've been unintentionally toxic. In my mid twenties, I was at an agency. I was frustrated there. I'd been there for a while. I had visa challenges. I couldn't leave. A lot of my own shit, right? And great people, great team. I was growing bored, and I had tried a couple times to reinvent my role there, and I was just, I was at a point where it just wasn't going anywhere. And maybe I didn't play the game well enough. Whatever it was. I'd been there for several years, and what happened was I started becoming unintentionally toxic. And maybe at the end I was intentionally toxic, but I didn't go in like that. I was frustrated with my situation, I was frustrated myself. I couldn't control it, and I started every little thing. Just like in a bad relationship, you start nitpicking the towel, and the crumbs, and, like, "Well, you didn't do that in the beginning." That's what happened here. I was just an asshole. I might've been right in some things, but it didn't matter because my approach was so wrong. It still does not excuse the way I behaved, right?. There's other times where people have started, again, not toxic, very excited about the vision, the mission, the brand, and things change and you have to adapt. A great leader will see it and hear about it and get at: is this something we can fix and solve? Because a lot of times it is, right? Generally speaking, those folks are salvageable. You can salvage them, and actually it can end up being great, productive cultural additions like they were in the beginning. So I actually like those, as stressful as it is, and I really push people to be honest with themselves, and honest with me, and their teammates on what the challenges are and see if we can fix it and then have the honest convo. Okay, if you can't fix it, then let's give yourself time, three to six months, to figure out the next thing. But unintentional toxicity is very different than intentional, and I think it's sometimes they get tossed into the same boat. 

[00:16:06] Roy Notowitz: So what are your thoughts about curiosity and how do you think about that? 

[00:16:10] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Listen, I think, especially for leaders, if you're a senior level director, whatever title and above, I think for so many decades, you cannot be vulnerable, right? You had to know the answers. There was no alternative scenario. So you just fake it till you make it. And I, I'd argue sometimes you still do, right? But there's other times, when it comes to the self-awareness, right, like of yourself, of your skill sets, of what you can do, that, first off, now, I think in the last 10 years has become far more accepted. And secondly, probably more importantly, as it relates to hiring and interviewing, the last thing I want is to end up at a job where I'm not prepared for it. Even if I just flat out lied, I couldn't imagine going into a role and somehow I faked it. I could probably put some stuff together and figure it out. I'd much rather say, "Listen, that's not my strength or my experience. It's kind of missed me in my whole career. It's one thing I really want, and I'll lean into it and I'll learn." Now you're set up for success. You might not get the job, but if that was critical right out the gate and you don't have that experience, I couldn't imagine going into it and pretending, right? 

[00:17:06] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. 

[00:17:06] Jackson Jeyanayagam: I'd much rather say, "I don't know it, but I'll freaking figure it out." So, for me, I think that vulnerability is critical, but it's also, it's hard man, especially nowadays, right? Oncoming recession or whatnot, people have been out of work for a while, they have bills to pay, right? You have some real shit you got to deal with, and you need a job. And I have a lot of friends who've been unemployed for a long time, Roy, for like a year, who normally would not be unemployed that long, so I also get that pressure, right? People don't talk about that. It's like now you're interviewing, and it's been a while since you've interviewed. You're at the last stage, someone asked a question -- much harder to be honest and vulnerable when you're so close than when you've like got five job opportunities and you're in a job now, right? So there's a lot of variables there that people don't talk about when they talk about being vulnerable and being honest too. 

[00:17:44] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. I also think, as a listener, when people are responding to questions, I feel like if they are vulnerable, if they are self-aware, if they are authentic, and then they share something that's maybe a weakness or a gap in their experience based on what the job is, I'm more likely just to believe the other aspects of what they're sharing around their strengths--

[00:18:06] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Totally. 

[00:18:07] Roy Notowitz: --and the opportunities, versus being skeptical of the whole thing. 

[00:18:11] Jackson Jeyanayagam: A hundred percent. I want to build on this because I've done a lot of interviews. I'm interviewing now, right? As you know, I left AB recently. I think the whole thing is broken, and a big reason it's broken is specific to a 45 minute, maybe an hour window, in particular on Zoom. When you have to read someone and figure this out, you know, you know how it is, Roy, you're putting two to three, four candidates in front of an executive. I think that's a lot for both parties, especially if you're on Zoom, you're distracted, you have a phone call, maybe you had a bad morning, you didn't get much sleep. Now this other person, especially if they really want the job, is putting on a little bit of a show. It's so funny, I think about this because I've done this so many times on both sides. It's kind of absurd in 45 minutes for us to make this determination, especially at a senior level. Now you can make the argument, "Well, at a senior level you're used to interviewing. You can read people, blah blah," but like, interview is different. It's like dating someone, right? 

[00:19:01] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. 

[00:19:01] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Yeah. I could read you, but there's so much more depth to go into when you're talking about a senior CEO, CMO, CCO role, and a lot of great candidates don't find great roles and vice versa-- 

[00:19:11] Roy Notowitz: Right.

[00:19:11] Jackson Jeyanayagam: --because of that 45 minute first impression. 

[00:19:14] Roy Notowitz: I can't agree more. I think one of the things that my team does, which is kind of interesting, is they often prefer to have phone conversations initially so that they can listen better because there's so many other inputs when you have the video and the visual where it just takes extra mental power, you know?

[00:19:34] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Sure. 

[00:19:35] Roy Notowitz: If you are just on a regular, old fashioned phone call, you can really listen better and, likewise, have a little bit less of that distraction. But I agree too, the other piece of that is the more time you spend with candidates, the more you learn. And if you can have a process that's iterative where you're not just having people learn the same thing about candidates, but having people get deeper each time they have a conversation -- or with different people -- I think that really helps inform a decision better. 

[00:20:06] Jackson Jeyanayagam: I couldn't agree more. As someone who's literally going through it now and has been through it recently, that's a great point. I love phone calls too. I think people are just too quick to say, "Let's just do a Zoom." Like, I don't remember a time for C-Suite roles, senior roles, like, before Covid, if you're interviewing and one the final three, ie., the search firm put you forward, you are always going in person. You're either flying there or you're going in person because it was such an important role, right? Especially CEO, President-- 

[00:20:32] Roy Notowitz: Sometimes multiple times. 

[00:20:33] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Sometimes multiple times, right? And maybe you do it over a meal too, right, to make it a little bit easier, less formal, and you really get to know them. I love doing interviews over meals, by the way, or drinks. I think it's the best. How they treat the staff -- the whole thing's a wonderful experiment. And if you're only meeting two or three people, then freaking do it. But, like, anytime I work with a firm or recruiting someone, I'm always like, "Hey, I'll do this in person. If you want to do it in person, I'll do it in person." It's always interesting to see who takes you up on it, but, to me, I just think people have missed great opportunities and vice versa, missed great people, as a result of a bad 45 minute zoom where you really don't get a sense of someone. 

[00:21:04] Roy Notowitz: Yeah, I think part of the dynamic, at least during Covid, in our sector, all of our clients were just off the hook hiring, right? And now we're suffering from that hangover. 

[00:21:14] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Yeah. 

[00:21:16] Roy Notowitz: During that process, first of all, travel was difficult, especially in the beginning or early parts, but then, later and right after Covid, when it was still a hot market, if you waited to try to schedule and align people so that they could go meet in person, you'd miss out on that candidate because everything just kind of accelerated--

[00:21:36] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Yeah. 

[00:21:36] Roy Notowitz: --with Zoom, and-- 

[00:21:37] Jackson Jeyanayagam: It's true. 

[00:21:38] Roy Notowitz: --now, it's usually just one final day, or half day, or two days before they make their final decision. There's lots of companies that still hire virtually, but flying somebody out twice and taking four, five months to do a senior-level hire, sometimes you lose candidates in the process.

[00:21:57] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Yeah. 

[00:21:58] Roy Notowitz: So how are you intentional about influencing and shaping culture? 

[00:22:04] Jackson Jeyanayagam: For me, I think, again, it depends on the scenario, right? But if there's already a very clear existing culture, it's really creating that bond chemistry with a team, like especially with the first CMO or first CDO. What is our role in this larger purpose of this company, right? If there is no culture, right, and whether it's company or the function, the group, then that's really fun also, because you're doing it from scratch, right? You're getting people together, everyone's involved, everyone has input, and you're doing fun exercises, and you're talking about, like, "If our company was a celebrity," I love this one, "Or, or a character." I love that. I think cultural values aren't just words. You got to believe in it, and it can't just be coming from top down and can't be a consultant. I love consultants in certain places, but a lot of times it's like, "You don't know our brand. Let us do this ourselves." So, for me, it starts there. If you already have it, it's very clear, and everyone's bought into it, then, to me, it's your actions, man, like words are whatever, right? At the end of the day, if the culture's there, and you're coming in, you have to be very clear on that. I think additive and complimentary is way more important than culture fit. I think people have talked about that for years. So, for me, it's about that, like, I should have the same core values as the leadership, the board, the company, right, the mission. 

[00:23:05] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. 

[00:23:06] Jackson Jeyanayagam: But how I approach or how I do it can be totally different. And, to me, it's my actions, my words, and being consistent. 

[00:23:11] Roy Notowitz: And part of this is you want to attract and repel at the same time. You want to describe and articulate that culture. 

[00:23:16] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Uh huh. 

[00:23:17] Roy Notowitz: And then they can self-select. So how do you think through and make decisions? And who do you involve in making those executive level hiring decisions?

[00:23:25] Jackson Jeyanayagam: I want the process to be super efficient. So I want the key leaders who are going to be working with them involved. Sometimes, depending on the role and level, how important it is, or if I'm really torn, because I've been torn, I'll go to my manager, my boss, whoever I'm working for and be like, "Hey, what do you think of this?" And they'll usually give me feedback. Sometimes I'll have them meet with them, but a lot of times they're like, "Hey, I would think about this." Great. That's what I need to know. For me, I like it to be super efficient, Roy, and very clean, but I want everyone to have the right input, but others on the team know, "Hey, just because you meet him or her doesn't mean your input doesn't matter. I'm just assuming that you're trusting your leader in this case or whoever it is." But, to me, the interview process has to be super, super clean. 

[00:24:02] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. I always say as many people as necessary, but not more than needed. You talk about hiring people with different types of backgrounds and industry experience. How have you ensured that your hiring processes are equitable and that you're attracting diverse talent from a broad range of backgrounds?

[00:24:19] Jackson Jeyanayagam: I really rely on my recruiter partner and I push them. So, like, I do like the idea of removing names. I actually like removing universities. I'm not big on "you need to have a university degree." For me personally, it's about the experience. 

[00:24:30] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. 

[00:24:31] Jackson Jeyanayagam: I really push them to recruit from other places. Don't just recruit from the colleges that we know. Don't just recruit from the place that we know. Let's go to the job boards and other places -- especially if it's a tough job to hire for -- where you're representative of people from different backgrounds, different ethnicities. For instance, like, there's also professional networking organizations supporting them. Go find them, go reach out to them. If you're outbound recruiting, I think it's really important that you're going and sourcing folks from different industries, and different backgrounds, and different college experiences. I also think it's just really important to, like, push your recruiting team on LinkedIn just to be like, "Hey. Let's go find people that are working at different kinds of companies in different cities and different places, and let's see if we can go find people that have different backgrounds and experiences." Then-- 

[00:25:10] Roy Notowitz: Cast a bigger net. 

[00:25:11] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Yeah, like, it can be very easy, especially if you're very busy, to just be like, "Great, I already have my candidates. They look great. They look like everyone else we've hired." So I think it's important to push and challenge your HR and recruiting partners, but, at the end of the day, you got to hire the best candidate. But as long as your pool is reflective of the broader community, I think that's the most important thing you can do.

[00:25:25] Roy Notowitz: That's great. So what trends are you seeing within the talent market based on your experience, both as a candidate and also as a hiring executive? 

[00:25:33] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Obviously the market's been tough. I think it's starting to get better. I've seen a couple things. One, it's been really cool to see people who are going way out of their way to help curate and find people jobs, right?

[00:25:43] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. 

[00:25:43] Jackson Jeyanayagam: They're literally, like, posting a crowdsource list of jobs. 

[00:25:46] Roy Notowitz: Yeah.

[00:25:46] Jackson Jeyanayagam: I've never seen anything like it. They're not making any money. They have jobs. They're just doing it to help other people. That's been really nice to see. Covid, I think, accelerated that. I've never seen that before, and I think LinkedIn's been the place for that. Two, there's a lot of folks, especially I think, who are over, let's say over 40 -- I'm 46 -- that are in mid-level and senior level roles that are feeling like ageism. "I'm not making it past this first round of interviews, or I'm not even getting past the screening." I think some of that's certainly due to ageism. I think that definitely exists. I think, in particular, in tech, I think, tends to be a little bit ageist. So I think that's broken. And I think thirdly, I think you're seeing a lot of people not leaving jobs, right? I was reading this article, I was talking to a lot of recruiters about this, like, because of uncertain times, you're less likely to leave. And the surest way to find new jobs is when someone leaves. An average tenure of executives is like two, two and a half years, so people aren't leaving. Yeah. I think what's going to happen in the next few months is there's going to be a lot of people leaving. I think the market's gotten a little better. I think post-election will be much better. I could see a mass exodus of people leaving, and I don't know if it's going to look like two years ago, but I could see, all of a sudden, a lot of jobs opening up. 

[00:26:43] Roy Notowitz: It's like pent up. 

[00:26:44] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Totally. Totally. 

[00:26:45] Roy Notowitz: It has to make financial sense for somebody to, to do that. 

[00:26:48] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Yeah. I also think one thing too, outside of economics, there are still a lot of people hiring, and there's still a lot of jobs out there.

[00:26:56] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. 

[00:26:56] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Not all of them are posted. Sometimes we rely too much on social media, and sometimes you got to create your own destiny, man. You just got to like-- 

[00:27:03] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. 

[00:27:03] Jackson Jeyanayagam: --get out there and talk to people authentically, right? And, and by the way, this also goes to why you should maintain relationships, while you're happy in a job. Not to say you should be looking for a job all the time, but just be out there connecting with people. 

[00:27:13] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. 

[00:27:13] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Have genuine relationships, and help other people when you don't have anything to gain from it, even maybe when you're down. 

[00:27:19] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. That's how you reached out to me. You weren't even looking for a job. This was years ago. 

[00:27:24] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Right. I was like, "Hey, let's connect," and you sent me some jobs that weren't right for me, and I gave you candidates, I think. 

[00:27:30] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. 

[00:27:30] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Yeah. I think that's really important, right? You pay it forward, and I think not enough people do that.

[00:27:34] Roy Notowitz: You know, you invested in my success, right? You were helping us think of candidates for a particular client, and I think if you have that approach where you're trying to help people and invest in their success, it all comes around. 

[00:27:46] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Yeah, and I'm not a saint, Roy. I mean, obviously I want you to think highly-- I want recruiters to think highly of me, right? There's no question that there's self-interest here too. I'm not going to lie about that. But, absolutely. I want to help people get great jobs. I want to help great people source great roles and candidates. I think that's really important. 

[00:28:00] Roy Notowitz: I think it also spoke to your leadership too, that you had kept a pipeline, a shortlist of people for different roles. We do this talent market survey every year in January, and when we started looking at this year, and it's turned out to be true, I would say hiring has been durable, sturdy, kind of steady, but slower than normal. And there's more people connected, and networking, and out there, so the talent availability is a little better. There's still hiring happening. It's just-- 

[00:28:30] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Slower. 

[00:28:30] Roy Notowitz: --slower, and I think it's going to stay that way for maybe the next six months and then hopefully it'll start to pick up again. 

[00:28:38] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Yeah, that's an interesting point. For instance, I know there's a lot of PE-backed companies that tend to have continued to hire, and they're picking up great talent-- 

[00:28:44] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. 

[00:28:45] Jackson Jeyanayagam: --who were at the Ubers of the world and the Googles of the world and the Amazons of the world because they got to let go, and they're getting talent that maybe otherwise they wouldn't have been able to get. So yeah, to your point, it just takes a little more effort because sometimes you're not going to see those jobs on LinkedIn, right? Like you're just not. 

[00:28:56] Roy Notowitz: Some of the layoffs that have been happening, companies have been cutting some really good people, not just-- 

[00:29:01] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Oh my God. 

[00:29:02] Roy Notowitz: --low performers. 

[00:29:02] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Great people. 

[00:29:03] Roy Notowitz: So there's some great people out there.

[00:29:05] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Yeah. 

[00:29:05] Roy Notowitz: What are you most excited about as you think about the future? And what's next for you? 

[00:29:10] Jackson Jeyanayagam: I mean TBD. I'll find the right opportunity when it comes. To me, it's very important at this point in my career to figure that out once the right thing is there. What I'm excited about in general though, man, I just think it's a really great time, despite the market ups and downs, to be a leader who came up in digital, right? Or to be working in digital and social. 

[00:29:26] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. 

[00:29:26] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Like, I have so many conversations about what this is going to look like. And when I say digital, it's not just digital marketing, right? It's everything at our fingertips from AI, cybersecurity. Yeah, it's going to be scary and daunting, but, like, I just think it's a really fun time for people to reinvent themselves, and, particularly with AI, to really think about what the future of marketing, and product, and experience, customer experience is. To think about the old tactics that still work. So I just think the next few years we're going to see a lot of innovation from all kinds of companies, and I think a lot of these brands that we considered to be the rebels are struggling. Nike, Google, like these companies haven't had it the easiest, and now you're seeing all these new technologies, new companies, even non-tech, come up, right. Full of competition and opportunities for people to reinvent themselves. 

[00:30:04] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. I feel like every day there's new ways to use AI. 

[00:30:08] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Oh my God. It's insane. Yeah. 

[00:30:10] Roy Notowitz: And the amount of productivity that that can create, it's hard to even fathom what it's going to be like five to seven years from now. 

[00:30:16] Jackson Jeyanayagam: We don't have to be terrified of it. It's not going to replace people's jobs tomorrow. 

[00:30:19] Roy Notowitz: Right. 

[00:30:19] Jackson Jeyanayagam: It just makes you better, more efficient. So you just have to lean in and get in there. It can be daunting, but it's pretty amazing. 

[00:30:24] Roy Notowitz: Well, great. Thank you so much, Jackson. This has been such a fun conversation. I have a hundred percent respect for your superpowers and your talents, and I appreciate you sharing some of your insights around hiring, and building teams, and leadership.

[00:30:37] Jackson Jeyanayagam: Thank you for having me.

[00:30:43] Roy Notowitz: Thanks for tuning in to How I Hire. Visit howihire.com for more details about the show. How I Hire is created by Noto Group Executive Search.

To find out more about us, visit notogroup.com. You can also sign up for our monthly email job alert newsletter there, and find additional job search strategy, resources, and additional content on hiring. This podcast was produced by Anna McClain. To learn more about her and her team's work, visit aomcclain.com.

‍