Offer Negotiation with Career Coach Kate Sargent

[00:00:00] Roy Notowitz: Hello and welcome to How I Hire, the podcast that taps directly into the best executive hiring advice and insights. I'm Roy Notowitz, founder and CEO of Noto Group. You can learn more about us at notogroup.com. As a go-to firm for purpose-driven companies, we've been lucky to work with some of the world's most inspiring leaders as they've tackled the challenge of building high performance leadership teams. Now I'm sitting down with some of these very people to spark a conversation about how to achieve success in hiring and create purposeful leadership for the next generation of companies. Kate Sargent is a seasoned career coach, and she joins me again to continue our in-depth conversations around her work with job seekers. In this episode, we'll unpack negotiations -- specifically, how candidates can effectively negotiate an offer with a new employer and how to gracefully exit an existing employer. For more job search insights, you can take a listen to Parts 1 and 2 of this conversation where we go into depth around working with recruiters and interviewing. Let's dive back in. Kate. Thanks for joining me again on the podcast to talk about job search related topics. We've had so many great conversations, and I'm looking forward to this one as well.

[00:01:26] Kate Sargent: Oh, thanks for having me, Roy. I'm excited to talk about this stuff too.

[00:01:30] Roy Notowitz: Today, we're going to talk about getting into a company, the offer negotiation, and getting out of a company, how to quit gracefully, and how to negotiate your exit. Let's start diving into the offer negotiation piece. And this, obviously, starts earlier, usually in conversations around: what are your compensation requirements and what would it take for you to make a move?

[00:01:54] Kate Sargent: I did not realize that this question causes so much stress for people. Until we get into a world where we have transparent compensation in every state, in every circumstance, it's always going to be a question that you're going to have to navigate, and some, I think, are more comfortable than others. So, I would say, your ideal goal in a salary negotiation, or an offer negotiation conversation, is to get the other person to name a number first or a range first. Do as much research as you can to be prepared for that salary conversation in advance. Now, the way I like to have folks ask that question back to the recruiter is, "Can you give me a general sense of what range you're looking to hire this role into?" When you ask for a range, it gives them a breadth of compensation where they can give you the low end and give you the high end, and then you can generally get a sense of where the mid range is. I would argue that, anytime a recruiter gives you a salary range, there's always at least 10% more on the top end of that number for the absolute right person. But I also think that, like, what we're going to talk about here too, is that there's so many different pieces to compensation outside of the base salary. That base dollar amount of what you are making is one piece of a larger compensation negotiation, and you just don't want to tie yourself into a number as much as you can. But, even if you do, you still have a lot of room to negotiate other things. But I like to say I'm considering a wide range of different roles, all of which have different total compensation packages, right?

[00:03:31] Roy Notowitz: And I'm most interested in the opportunity, and I understand that different companies have different elements of their compensation, so I'm interested in the total package.

[00:03:42] Kate Sargent: Push it back onto them as much as you can to answer the question.

[00:03:46] Roy Notowitz: And if you're coming from a bigger company, and you're talking to a smaller one, you might even say something like, "Hey, I recognize that I might not be able to come in at the level that I've been given the size of the organization. I'm realistic, and what's most important to me is the opportunity." And also, in this case, for example, there might be some equity or other elements of compensation that would be meaningful, not to mention the intrinsic level of interest they have just in the company and the mission.

[00:04:15] Kate Sargent: Be prepared to understand what kind of trade-offs you want to make in your process. Be sure which thing you're going after and what you're chasing right now. So when we're talking about, like, the actual dollar amount that we're looking at, wherever a job posting is, generally, what you're looking at is the base salary, right? This is a base minimum. This is your expected comp that you're going to be making every single week, month, however it works out. And then, when we talk about bonus, a lot of times we talk about this in variable comp, so any sort of compensation that is dependent on something else happening, and that could be performance of you, performance of the company, or whatever. It's the money you can't count on. A 40% bonus can sound incredible, and someone can really sell that to you, but if the company's not making bonus, it's nothing. It's worth nothing.

[00:05:03] Roy Notowitz: And, especially in this environment, it's incumbent upon them, too, to be realistic in communicating to you what you might expect, especially that first year. Sometimes you can negotiate a guaranteed bonus for the first year since you wouldn't really have as much of an impact, or a partial bonus. Have you seen that?

[00:05:22] Kate Sargent: I have seen that, and I've also seen, like, you need to be aware before you get to that offer letter, is it a prorated bonus? If you get hired in October, a lot of times, and the bonus is in January, you're not eligible for any of that bonus as well, and if you don't ask questions about that, you might not know that until the last minute. I like to talk about the two steppers. We bring you in at this level, and then, in six months, if you hit all of your KPIs, here's what the bonus and compensation looks like, and here's what your titling might look like. So being able to come in at this and then hit this with a certain period of time can be really helpful too if people are in between titles or in between salary bands.

[00:06:02] Roy Notowitz: And what about equity?

[00:06:04] Kate Sargent: Equity is dependent on the company. It's dependent on the vest. It's dependent on the timeline.

[00:06:11] Kate Sargent: because equity usually takes a period of time to vest. Equity is very complicated, so, I would say, one, talk to somebody who's been through it before, has some sort of ability to speak to it, but also a financial advisor can be really helpful in this situation to give you the bottom line of what equity looks like. Don't be afraid to say, "I don't understand how this equity works," maybe not to the recruiter or the hiring manager, but to somebody else to get that explained to you because you need to have a lot of information behind that before you make decisions. A lot of people don't realize that title is something that you can negotiate too, I would say. Particularly in smaller companies where you might be stepping down from a larger company or where there's a little bit more flexibility in their matrix. So, to me, title can be that thing that puts you over the edge if you've got a base salary in a smaller company that may not be as desirable as a larger company salary. Getting that title bump can be huge for your future earning potential, and your career, and also a really great recognition of the fact that you have a broader range of work that you might be taking on in a smaller company.

[00:07:16] Roy Notowitz: The

[00:07:16] Roy Notowitz: What about PTO?

[00:07:17] Kate Sargent: Yeah, PTO is an interesting one. So, in the smaller companies, it's a little bit easier to negotiate some PTO, and you can negotiate it in a lot of different ways. If there's a policy where you have to be somewhere a year before you get upleveled to a new level of PTO, that's something that you could potentially negotiate getting to that point quicker. If you want to take a vacation on the backend of leaving your previous job, you can negotiate that upfront. When you are in the offer process, that is the best time to put PTO on your calendar in terms of getting it already approved before you sign on. Tell them in advance. Put it on the calendar. It's something that you can negotiate on your way in a lot easier, sometimes, than once you get there.

[00:08:04] Roy Notowitz: And sign-ons, non-competes.

[00:08:08] Kate Sargent: A sign-on is generally, like, "We're going to pay you an extra $25,000 to take this role outside of your base compensation." The reason people would use a sign-on would be potentially to avoid an equity problem. If somebody in that level is making $150,000, and they're bringing you on at $150,000, but really you're asking for $175, $25,000 sign-on bonus is a great way to bridge you until the next year when you might get a pay bump, or to incentivize you to choose their company versus someone else. One of the things I would say for sign-ons is to be really careful. Usually they have a claw back. A clawback is a prorated, "We're going to give you this sign-on bonus, but, if you leave before a year, you have to pay it back."

[00:08:52] Roy Notowitz: Same with relocation lump sums.

[00:08:55] Kate Sargent: Yeah. Yeah. Relocation sums too. That's another thing you can negotiate if you have to relocate, is that relocation amount and whether you take it in cash, or whether you take it through a relocation company. That's another piece. If you have a recruiter, or somebody in the company, or an HR person, that's saying, "Hey, we have pay bands. There's equity at stake here. We can't raise you above somebody else who's in that pay level," sign-ons are a great way to get past that and something that you could potentially ask for to bridge you before you get to that next level.

[00:09:24] Roy Notowitz: I know in California, non-competes are not a thing, but, in other states they are. Any advice around that? And hopefully, I think, that seems to be changing.

[00:09:34] Kate Sargent: Yeah, so the legislature did ban non-competes, but they've put a stay on that, as they're appealing it in a lot of more high profile situations. But I think we are definitely headed in that direction of non-competes, for the most part, going by the wayside. That's something you can negotiate on the way in, those non-competes, so that you can make sure to protect yourself on the backend -- if you do wind up leaving an organization, if something dissolves, if there's an acquisition -- where you can remove a non-compete clause for certain reasons, or just ask to have it removed from your contract entirely, especially if there's no reason for you to have a non-compete. Sometimes companies just throw those in there anyway, so that's something that you can certainly talk through as well. There's another piece of it -- this is mostly for executives -- but if there's a change in control, you can actually negotiate a severance package at the backend if they get acquired and your job becomes eliminated. Start date is another one. If you want to take a little bit of time off in between the work that you do, sometimes you can negotiate some additional PTO in there. If they want you to start sooner, you can sometimes start as a part-time, or a consultant, or whatever. Do you want to stay remote for a little bit longer? Do you want to negotiate any of those pieces as well? So, your start date is always negotiable. If it's not negotiable, I would also find that to be a little bit of a red flag, if they're not willing to negotiate your start date. That should be something that you would've probably talked about with the recruiter through the process to understand that they needed somebody immediately.

[00:11:05] Kate Sargent: My last piece of negotiation advice is that there's always room for two no's, which means, if somebody offers you a base salary, you ask for $30K more, they come back and say, "No," there's always one more ask. More than two is too many, but there's always one more ask of something else that you can get as a concession. So, if you don't get the base salary, maybe you get a sign-on. If you don't get the sign-on, maybe you get a title bump, unless they've been very, very, very explicit that, "This is it, and we are not negotiating any further." Go for the second "no." The worst thing they can say is, "No," and then you take the job as is.

[00:11:45] Kate Sargent: if you've had a really hard negotiation where there's been a lot of conversations back and forth, and back and forth, between lawyers and a lot of high-level folks -- and even at the more junior levels -- if you've gone back and forth with a little bit of a hardball negotiation, when you finally accept that job offer, or even if you decline that job offer, it is grace. It is kindness. It is thankfulness, and it is excitement to start this role because, coming out of a hard negotiation, you want to be the most excited person to join this company and so thankful for any of the concessions that they've made as well.

[00:12:19] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. Well, let's shift gears into quitting and negotiating. Let's talk about when somebody makes the decision to make a move, whether it's their choice or the company's decision to make a change. How does somebody quit and negotiate with grace?

[00:12:37] Kate Sargent: Yeah, so I think we need to think about the different types of circumstances that you would be leaving an organization. So there's: it's your choice or it's not your choice. Let's say you're quitting, and you're leaving on good terms because you've gotten another job that you're really excited about. Ultimately, what you want to do is provide as much notice as possible. Keep it simple. You don't have to tell people where you're going. You don't have to make a big deal out of it. Letter of appreciation, notifying your manager, and exiting in a proper timeline, two weeks or more, is really all you need to do. And then, you know, kind of gracefully leave and hand over your work as you're exiting.

[00:13:15] Roy Notowitz: So, what I've seen with this is employers react in different ways. If it's somebody they really want to keep, they might guilt trip them. They might promise them a promotion or do a counter offer. So, before you have that difficult conversation, have your three talking points and to stick to them. Because, if you do get, for example, the guilt trip, you don't get sidetracked or looped into a dialogue that makes it even more difficult down the road to leave

[00:13:45] Kate Sargent: Before you walk into that conversation with those talking points, you need some idea of, like, is there a number that you would stay for? Is there a title you would stay for? Is there a person you would stay for? Is there a team you would stay for? Because you might get that hard sell, and waffling back and forth, being wishy-washy, can make it even worse for yourself and the person who's trying to retain you. So, really knowing your limits of, like, are you leaving for sure? Is there a number that would make you stay? And what would be the circumstance? You also need to think about the fact that you will always be the person that tried to leave. You definitely need to weigh the options of whether it makes sense to make a clean break, or if you're going to really have that path you're looking for internally.

[00:14:27] Roy Notowitz: And how does HR get involved? Or how should somebody involve HR,

[00:14:33] Kate Sargent: If you're making a clean break and leaving just to go to another job, I would say loop HR in on your resignation letter. Give them a heads up, or, potentially, let them know right after you tell your manager. There's other options too, though. If you're quitting, and you don't necessarily want to give a ton of information, you know that you've made this plan to get out and exit your workplace, but it's not necessarily a super amicable situation, and you're not just exiting, but you're trying to get out of the organization, I think that's a different scenario where you're really wanting to get HR involved and potentially helping package you out. But, ultimately, if you're trying to leave a company, not necessarily for another job, or because there is a negative reason that you're trying to get out of there, a lot of times HR can be the best partner for you in terms of figuring out a way for you to exit gracefully, maybe get some severance, find a way to separate and take care of yourself to get out of a particularly bad situation as well. So HR can be involved on both the positive side of things and the negative side of things. And then ,separation agreements are a part of exits, generally. If you just quit because you're leaving for another job, and you want to make a clean break, you can just exit. Get out. But if there is a circumstance where you might have an opportunity to get one of these exit packages, generally, what the HR team is going to look for is having you sign a separation agreement. What is a separation agreement? It's basically an agreement from both sides, both the company and the person that's leaving that, "We've negotiated this, we've agreed upon these terms. You're getting this. We're getting this. No one's going to talk negatively about each other. Everybody's going to stay under NDA, and we're going to part amicably, even if there was, potentially, a negative circumstance surrounding the reason that you were leaving," and your HR partner is really the person that you're going to be communicating back and forth with. I don't want to say, like, legal representation. You have your opportunity to get legal representation in that space, but your HR person is the one that you're going to most likely be communicating back and forth with to get this separation agreement together.

[00:16:35] Roy Notowitz: Okay, so what aspects or parts of the separation agreement can you negotiate or influence typically? And to what degree?

[00:16:45] Kate Sargent: That's a great question. You can pretty much negotiate any piece of your separation agreement. It's a matter of whether somebody's going to say "yes" or "no" to it is more the issue, but you can try to negotiate any piece. So let's start with compensation. So, generally, when you have a separation agreement, there is some level of severance that will be paid out if you are in a good company that's willing to do that. What is severance? Severance is additional pay at your rate of pay past the date that you are working. There's no real rule of thumb, but a lot of companies will use two weeks for every year, one week for every year you've been there, or they'll have a flat rate that everybody gets as they're exiting the business. A lot of times, I've been able to negotiate double what's been offered in terms of severance, and I think you can always go back and ask for additional severance and salary. You won't always get it. A lot of times people will say "no," but if you ask, a lot of times you will get a little bit more or, sometimes, a lot more. The second segment that you can negotiate is benefits. Generally, there's an option for continuation of benefits in a rich separation agreement, where the company will offer you three months of benefits to continue, just to help you bridge to whatever your next job is. At that point, you have COBRA, and some companies will be generous enough to cover your COBRA as well. Benefits are wildly expensive, and, generally, your company is paying a significant percentage of them, so you might be shocked to find a $2,000, $2500 bill for COBRA after that. So, anything you can get them to cover is really great in that space. One of the other things you can negotiate on your severance package is a lump sum bonus. If you had a bonus that you missed for that year, getting a prorated bonus for what the anticipated bonus might look like for your performance for that year. You can absolutely ask for any different kind of structure when it comes to equity that you might be walking away from, or money that you might be walking away from. The reason you signed up-- into a company could have been for some of these, you know, longer term incentives. Let's say your company's maybe getting bought by another company. Asking to transition your equity into the new company, versus just being paid out for it. That could be an option as well. You can also negotiate an exercise window, and the cool thing about that is you can kind of see where the company's going.

[00:19:12] Roy Notowitz: Right.

[00:19:12] Kate Sargent: Because if you're getting laid off in a company, a lot of times, you don't want to have to exercise those options because it feels like maybe they're not doing very well, and, maybe, exercising your options is not tax advantageous to you. Maybe it's a bad year for your income. Maybe you'd rather do it next year. And anyone who's dealt with equity knows what we're talking about. And if you don't, talk to somebody who knows about equity before you make these kind of decisions. But a nine month window could potentially give you an opportunity to see if the company's going to fall apart, and your equity might be worth nothing. At least you would have the option to make those decisions on a longer term plan.

[00:19:45] Roy Notowitz: Can you ask for the company to give you cash to help offset the vesting.?

[00:19:51] Kate Sargent: Yeah. So, like, to basically, like, trade your shares back in for cash? Absolutely.

[00:19:56] Roy Notowitz: Yeah.

[00:19:56] Kate Sargent: It's the, it's the wild west out here of negotiation when it comes to your separation. You can ask for anything. And that's, I think, the mentality people need to be in. People get, like, really caught up in the fact that they're leaving, that it's sad, and this is, like, "Push that aside."

[00:20:10] Roy Notowitz: Yeah.

[00:20:10] Kate Sargent: You're going to deal with that in a minute, and let's make sure we get everything we can here. So, I would say, you can ask for anything you want in this circumstance. You want it to be relatively reasonable, but, like, everything's kind of on the table in these separation agreements for what you can do. A lot of times there'll be something like outplacement services put in there as well, where you can go work with a job coaching agency for job placement, resume, LinkedIn. You don't have to just say, "Okay, great, I'm glad I'm getting that." You can ask for the lump sum of the amount that they're paying for that, or even, potentially, more. I've seen people, recently, that I've negotiated for, get upwards of $7,500 to $10,000 in outplacement because they want you to get another job, right? They want you to leave positively. We need to remember that separation agreements are all about amicable separations. We sign off. We're all happy. And if they can help you get a job faster, that's going to leave you less bitter about the company, less time they're going to have to pay your benefits, everybody wins in that circumstance.

[00:21:14] Roy Notowitz: How should you go into making those requests? You don't want to do it from a standpoint of anger or make it contentious, so what's the best way?

[00:21:22] Kate Sargent: I think matter of factly in writing. You want to put things in writing. Bulleted, very clear, non-threatening. At least for the first ask, right? If they're playing hardball, and this is a really negative situation, and you wind up having to get legal counsel, et cetera, that's a whole different ball game, and that doesn't-- that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about a simple layoff or exit where things are not wildly contentious.

[00:21:48] Roy Notowitz: We talked about sometimes contracting, versus making a clean break. Are there pros and cons?

[00:21:54] Kate Sargent: That's a tough one, right? I've done it. It really depends on your relationship there, and whether you're going to be able to do the work that you need to get done, and whether people can actually honor a contract agreement. A lot of times, those will be part-time. And, "Can you do your job in 20 hours, versus 40 hours?" is something that I always recommend people think about when they get contracted to do their job afterwards for a lesser number of hours, because that's, ultimately, a lot of times, what people think you're doing is you're going to do the full job for 20 hours a week. So, I would say, be reasonable about the scope of work and, and whether you want to continue that relationship, and then the emotions and the feelings involved too, right? Is your team in a bad place? Are they upset that you're leaving? Are they only doing this to save themselves, and it has nothing to do with supporting you? Are you going to have a negative experience while you're doing that contract work? When you rip a bandaid slow, sometimes it can be harder on your psyche too, especially if you really love that place. Sometimes contracting makes it hard, particularly in a layoff situation. It can be really damaging for you to stick around somewhere that feels like they don't want you anymore.

[00:22:59] Roy Notowitz: So it's really, like, a personal choice.

[00:23:01] Kate Sargent: Totally.

[00:23:01] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. And what about just, in general, social media, things like that? When people always post, when they leave companies, sometimes they post these really long, like, how much they appreciate everyone and their experience. And do you recommend people do that or not do that? Or what's the rule of thumb there?

[00:23:20] Kate Sargent: I would say, evaluate your level of bitterness before you decide what you're going to do on social media. Give yourself a little bit of room and runway to mourn if this was a layoff situation. If you chose to leave, and it was a great company, whatever, like, throw that flowery, incredible post out there about your company. You know, they might've been the people that set you up to get this next job, and they gave you all the skills that you needed to do it. But, on the flip side, if you get laid off from a company, and you post an exceptionally flowery, "love them so much" type of post, you've got to be careful. because sometimes that rings really false to people and people are like, "Why are you thanking the people that just laid you off unexpectedly?" So, I do think there's a level of tone that should exist in that social post and a level of, "Is this realistic, what I'm saying out here and doesn't make sense?" You can always choose not to do it at all too. We live in a social media world, but you can choose not to talk about it at all, and just leave it be, and choose to post about what you're doing next. You know, your next part of your journey and, and kind of leave your company out of it. You know, it could be an appreciation post with a tone of sadness or bittersweet kind of tone to it, but I would avoid directly criticizing your company because it's just not worth it. It might get you a ton of likes on LinkedIn. It might get you a lot of notice on LinkedIn, but ultimately it lives forever. That lives forever on the internet, and people will remember that when, you know, it comes to trying to help you and hire you in future too.

[00:24:50] Roy Notowitz: The most important thing is just to have a positive mindset and recognize, whether it's happened to you or whether you're making this decision, that these types of things happen every day. How you show up to that really speaks to potential employers, people in your network that know you, and then, people who don't know you that you're trying to make connections with. So, as difficult as it might be in going through all those emotions, try to get yourself into a positive place. Maybe that means taking a week or two off to clear your head or work through those emotions, and then come back at it from a very positive and optimistic mindset.

[00:25:27] Kate Sargent: Also, get people's information and recommendations before you leave the company, because, a lot of times, it's harder to do that after you leave the company. You lose touch. People are less motivated to help you. So, making sure that you line up those connections, your references, get those recommendations on LinkedIn, particularly if you're in a layoff where there's a lot of other people that are getting laid off, trade recommendations. It's also a really great way to remember that you're great. Right? Like, to have somebody do a recommendation for you so that you feel like you are still as good as the day that you left. And then, go post on social media when you're in the right headspace for that.

[00:26:05] Roy Notowitz: Let's talk about what you do on LinkedIn other than post your goodbye message or your moving on to the next adventure message to position yourself.

[00:26:15] Kate Sargent: I think we're getting out the "Open to Work" banner here. So the "Open to Work" banner, which is slightly controversial these days, I am very much a believer that, when you are ready to talk about what you're about to do next, this is a moment where you want to craft a really thoughtful message about the type of work that you do, the journey that you're on. Is it consulting? Is it looking for full-time employment? Is it taking some time off and coming back to hit it hard in three months? I think this is absolutely a place on LinkedIn for you to be able to convey that message to your network, to the passersby, to anyone who's connected with you, to make sure that you have a great runway for whatever you want to do next. I personally believe that the "Open to Work" banner is only something you should activate if you have a very compelling post, story to go along with it, and that it's not just something that you throw up, you slap on your profile, and you just wait for it to do all the work for you. I think that it needs to be a part of a crafted, cohesive story and a narrative that people can understand in terms of how they can help you find your next role. And then being really clear what the ask is. Not too broadly saying, "I can do anything." To me, this needs to be a targeted moment where you communicate with your network and ask for what you want. And my other take on the "Open to Work" banner and how you communicate with your network is: don't leave it up there forever, right? Like, if it's a long time and you have not been able to get a role in the last six months, I might consider not letting that "Open to Work" banner define you and feel like you're stale on the market right now. Might be something that you take off, you put back on you.

[00:27:57] Kate Sargent: use it when you need to, use it with the right type of storytelling, and use it effectively on LinkedIn. And then start making connections. You don't need to just let your profile be passive. This is the time where you start active connecting.

[00:28:10] Roy Notowitz: And this ties back to our first and second podcast episode, actually, where we talked about job search strategy and interviewing, and there's lots of great information on those podcasts as well. We'll put links to those episodes so that you can listen to the full conversation that we've had around this topic, which has been fabulous. Thank you so much, Kate, for all of your expertise and wisdom. I think that you're amazing and an incredible resource for anyone who is going through this type of career transition, so thank you so much.

[00:28:46] Kate Sargent: Thanks, Roy. Thanks for having me again. I think you're amazing as well, this outplacement work and this layoff work, you know, if you are looking for support during this process, I am not a lawyer, but I can help people negotiate these challenging separation agreements. So, reach out if you do need some support in that process for what you can negotiate and how to communicate with your HR team too.

[00:29:07] Roy Notowitz: And you can also help companies with outplacement resources and things like that as well. Is that right?

[00:29:14] Kate Sargent: I sure can. So, if there's a company out there that's looking to really do right by their people, help them with job placement, job coaching, really giving an understanding of the tools they have and how they tell their story to, to navigate this challenging market, as well as strong interviewing capabilities, those are the places where I really can plug in to organizations that are looking to support the folks that they're laying off. And I would say the companies who really, truly do care in the layoff process, there's quite a few of them out there. There's a lot of companies that are willing to negotiate that, so just ask for it.

[00:29:45] Roy Notowitz: Excellent. Thank you so much for being on the podcast, and I look forward to seeing you soon.

[00:29:50] Kate Sargent: Thanks, Roy.

[00:29:58] Roy Notowitz: Thanks for tuning in to How I Hire. Visit howihire.com for more conversations about hiring and job search strategy. How I Hire is created by Noto Group. To find out more about us. Visit notogroup.com. You can also sign up for our monthly email job alert newsletter there and find additional job search strategy resources, as well as content on hiring. This podcast was produced by Anna McClain. To learn more about her and her team's work, visit aomcclain.com.

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